Hence offshore timelines are defused refractions, a hypothetical climbing-hold gives a phantom grip
00:00:00 I ask other audience, guests to mute,
00:00:04 so that it won't be other noise
00:00:06 coming in during our conversation
00:00:08 If you have any question or
00:00:10 you really want to join our conversation,
00:00:13 maybe try to type in the chat,
00:00:15 use the chat function to send us a question.
00:00:18 and we probably will
00:00:20 try to have a conversation for 1 hour
00:00:23 And at the beginning,
00:00:24 I will introduce Yutaka, and also Melanie
00:00:28 And then we talked about the project,
00:00:31 have a brief introduction on the work
00:00:35 we curated, we created together, and then,
00:00:38 we can leave a little bit time at
00:00:40 if anyone have questions.
00:00:42 Okay? , so the first thing, I'm going to introduce our honorary guest,
00:00:50 and thank you Melanie for joining us. And in this session,
00:00:53 it was great to have the conversation with you
00:00:56 last time.
00:00:57 So I think our conversation really explain, not explain,
00:01:01 a kind of illustrate
00:01:03 or giving people more introduction into what
00:01:07 we're trying to do
00:01:08 What is our exercise about. And
00:01:12 So, Melanie is a curator at Ikon Gallery,
00:01:16 one of the galleries
00:01:17 one of the galleries I love it a lot in the UK based in Birmingham,
00:01:22 together with a director Jonathan Watkins,
00:01:25 and Melanie is responsible for the gallery’s artistic program,
00:01:30 including exhibitions, commissions, and publications.
00:01:33 And before Melanie returned to the UK to join Ikon,
00:01:37 she was the assistant curator
00:01:39 at the Institute of Contemporary Art in Singapore
00:01:43 for quite a long time
00:01:45 actually between 2014 to 19
00:01:48 and where she organized more than 60 exhibitions, a lot,
00:01:54 And with local,
00:01:55 regional and international artists.
00:01:57 She's also a writer
00:02:00 and contribute regularly to international publication
00:02:03 and media
00:02:04 including Art-Agenda, ArtAsia Pacific, Art Monthly, Frieze,
00:02:11 and Ocula, Leap, Financial Time,
00:02:15 and yet so many different an art magazine,
00:02:20 really interesting art magazine as well.
00:02:22 And in 2014,
00:02:24 she edited
00:02:24 and cowrote the first monograph
00:02:27 on the work of Malaysian artist
00:02:29 Shooshie Sulaiman.
00:02:31 And I think this is
00:02:32 when you guys met the other, right?
00:02:35 Yes, that's right.
00:02:36
00:02:41 I just actually, I'm reading out from your bio. You are the member
00:02:44 of the International Association for art critic,
00:02:47 which I'm also one of the members in Hong Kong district.
00:02:50 And also, Melanie holds a MA in Curating Contemporary Art
00:02:54 from the Royal College of Art.
00:02:56 So, a short introduction.
00:02:58 And Yutaka, I'm not going to read out your bio.
00:03:02 Ok, don't worry!
00:03:05 I just want to say it's quite interesting.
00:03:08 Basically, Yutaka and me,
00:03:09 we met back in 2003, so many years ago,
00:03:14 when we both did our MA in Chelsea（College of Arts） in London,
00:03:19 we were actually in Chelsea, our campus was quite big, but we
00:03:23 somehow happened to be in the same room
00:03:26 or studio
00:03:27 almost next to the other.
00:03:29 There wasn't, I wouldn't say there was a lot of conversation
00:03:33 or exchange at that time.
00:03:35 But when I had the opportunity to visit
00:03:38 Japan and the Echigo Tsumari Triennale
00:03:43 in Japan back in 2018.
00:03:45 That was when we reconnected again.
00:03:48 And when we had this opportunity, we realized actually both of us
00:03:53 even though we both trained as an artist, and
00:03:56 we both practiced for years,
00:03:58 at least until the time when we met
00:04:00 or studied,
00:04:01 but somehow, we took different paths,
00:04:04 I became more and more be known as a curator,
00:04:08 focus on curating
00:04:09 and actually I have not been doing
00:04:13 pure artwork or the work
00:04:14 I used to do for many years.
00:04:17 And Yutaka,
00:04:19 he is still pursuing
00:04:20 his own practice
00:04:21 and really pushing it because when I knew Yutaka,
00:04:25 his painting was beautiful.
00:04:28 I still remember that,
00:04:29 and I still saw some of these in his studio when I
00:04:32 visited you in Onomichi and his beautiful painting
00:04:36 and obviously there was recognition about that.
00:04:39 But what really impressed me is the way
00:04:42 he is trying to question what he did
00:04:46 and
00:04:47 and what he's doing,
00:04:48 why he kept doing it,
00:04:49 is there other way?
00:04:50 which can also illustrate or express his interest
00:04:55 in transculture, linguistic,
00:04:57 so many different
00:04:58 social themes, mentality of Japanese people,
00:05:01 so is a very complex and rich content. and
00:05:04 And in this way, he also did
00:05:06 some collage, video montage,
00:05:09 installation, and sculpture as well.
00:05:12 So, I think this is how we started the conversation.
00:05:15 It's like we both were starting as artists
00:05:17 but having different level of curating work as well.
00:05:23 And it was so great that you met
00:05:26 Melanie through the work of Shooshie Sulaiman, and other artists
00:05:30 I met briefly in Japan when I visited you
00:05:33 and had a residency two years ago.
00:05:35 And so that's how, with three of us
00:05:39 were brought together through that digital collaboration.
00:05:45 That is amazing.
00:05:48 It's so interesting.
00:05:50 Ying, also hearing you describe Yutaka.
00:05:56 Because I had a similar kind of feeling
00:05:59 when I first went to Yutaka’s studio,
00:06:01 and of course, as Ying mentioned,
00:06:04 but also to explain to those present.
00:06:08 I've been working with
00:06:10 Shooshie Sulaiman, a Malaysian artist
00:06:13 for quite a long time. And also, over a very long time,
00:06:17 She has been involved in
00:06:19 an artist in residency program
00:06:21 in Onomichi in Japan that
00:06:24 Yutaka among others
00:06:26 has been facilitating and hosting Shooshie regularly.
00:06:31 And so, when I visited Japan, really to visit
00:06:35 Shooshie on one of the occasions that she was there
00:06:38 and working, because her method of working as well
00:06:42 is very much on site, and embedded in the environment,
00:06:46 of a particular place.
00:06:49 And so, her project has really centered around
00:06:52 this renovation of sorts of an old
00:06:56 Japanese house.
00:06:58 And so, when I met Yutaka,
00:07:00 it was, it was so lovely, because he,
00:07:03 he took me around
00:07:05 also to the university campus,
00:07:08 and his studio. And ever since then,
00:07:12 and, you know,
00:07:13 I think what you highlighted Ying as well,
00:07:17 about Yutaka,
00:07:18 orry, we keep talking about you in the third person.
00:07:21 Thank you.
00:07:23 Thank you.
00:07:25 You are the subject at the moment.
00:07:28 Yeah, this this constant curiosity and self interrogation,
00:07:33 you know, vision. And, Yutaka is a very experienced artist,
00:07:38 you know,
00:07:38 and I think a lot of artists at that point
00:07:41 in their careers,
00:07:42 you know, they can get sometimes complacent,
00:07:46 you know, or settled on a particular way of working.
00:07:49 And I found,
00:07:50 you know it's you know, it's surprising
00:07:52 and it feels very fresh
00:07:54 and kind of youthful as an approach.
00:07:57 And I suppose, you know,
00:08:00 first question to go more specifically
00:08:02 into your collaboration
00:08:04 on this project.
00:08:05 Obviously, we've heard about how you reconnected in 2018.
00:08:11 But at what point did you decide
00:08:13 upon actually working on a project together?
00:08:18 You know
00:08:19 was it.
00:08:20 Yutaka, was it something that you had already imagined?
00:08:23 And because I know that you've talked about
00:08:25 Ying as this really helpful sounding board generally,
00:08:30 over the recent period for your ideas
00:08:33 and artistic thinking.
00:08:35 or wasn't an idea that that came from
00:08:38 both of you, you know,
00:08:39 to work on a sort of digital platform?
00:08:43 Um...
00:08:46 yeah, I think, yeah, in terms of this specific online project,
00:08:53 so it was supposed to be an exhibition format.
00:08:59 Because, you know,
00:09:03 I've been doing some kind of, like, artists-curator
00:09:07 things, using the group-show format,
00:09:09 then I was really interested in,
00:09:11 you know,
00:09:12 like doing something similar as an artist-curator,
00:09:15 to creating, or using a solo-show format,
00:09:20 then doing (as) the project. So, this was
00:09:22 the kind of idea, then when Ying came to Onomichi then we did,
00:09:28 like a 1-day projects together.
00:09:32 Then it was really fun. And, you know, for me,
00:09:38 I really respect Ying’s curation and creation.
00:09:42 It's really, you know, for me,
00:09:45
00:09:45 you (Melanie) and Ying are, you know, the professional I respect
00:09:51 also you know,
00:09:52
00:09:53 I'm trusting you guys, as a friend, so
00:09:57 so this is a for me,
00:09:58 It's very important to work with someone
00:10:01 who I can trust and
00:10:04 and who I respect their, you know, like a professional capabilities.
00:10:09 So, this is, um...
00:10:12 So, I asked Ying,
00:10:14 you know, if she's interested in, you know, like
00:10:16 doing something together,
00:10:18 something like a solo show format,
00:10:20 but (as) the project.
00:10:23 Yeah, that was the beginning,
00:10:26 then the Covid things happened, then,
00:10:28 then we shifted to the online,
00:10:32 but actually it was a quite a good opportunity, you know.
00:10:35
00:10:37 Because,
00:10:38 you know, it's really funny things about my practice is
00:10:41 even though I created lots of, like a
00:10:44 physical, like a material object,
00:10:46 I kept saying, like, this is about the digital,
00:10:50 This is about the physical and digital.
00:10:53 But the outcome is like a
00:10:55 purely like object based something,
00:10:57 you know, like physical material.
00:10:59 But yeah, in this case,
00:11:03 It's quite interesting because we only
00:11:06 treated things in online
00:11:07 like a digital based,
00:11:08 you know, creation,
00:11:09 Then it's really interesting.
00:11:11 Like, Ying mentioned at the last meeting,
00:11:14 you know,
00:11:14
00:11:14 our online project, (there) is something
00:11:18 she felt like physical, right?
00:11:20 it's not completely like an immersive,
00:11:23 like a digital experience,
00:11:24 (there's) something about the physical
00:11:26 within a digital.
00:11:28 So, this is, for me a very interesting opportunity,
00:11:32
00:11:32 just to purely focusing on the digital format,
00:11:34 and doing things online.
00:11:37 Yeah, I think both of us like either Yutaka or me,
00:11:42 we both are not from the digital era.
00:11:46 We are not media native
00:11:48 But we see different platform
00:11:51 or different medium.
00:11:53 And using the same way,
00:11:55 how we trying to understand a physical space
00:11:59 or materials,
00:12:00 we're trying to apply our sense of materiality
00:12:05 and respond to site-specific element
00:12:07 into the virtual world,
00:12:09 we're trying to project it into a virtual world
00:12:12 and see if it works.
00:12:14 so that's why
00:12:16 from the very beginning,
00:12:17 we know that we don't want to just create a website,
00:12:21 we also want to work with social media.
00:12:25 Because social media, there was a given,
00:12:27 a well-designed architecture within that.
00:12:30 And we tried to address a knowledge,
00:12:33 the architecture, which was created,
00:12:36 but also tried to see how to use it as a canvas
00:12:40 for the artist
00:12:41 to put on his idea to play with it.
00:12:44 And so that's why we have that two platform together.
00:12:48
00:12:49 In terms of using the digital format,
00:12:53 we don't see digital as a substitute.
00:12:55 It is not a substitute, because
00:12:57 we cannot have a physical exhibition,
00:12:59 rather, this is
00:13:02 kind of like a very smooth transformation, or responce
00:13:07 when pandemic happen,
00:13:08 when we cannot meet in person
00:13:11 or do a physical exhibition,
00:13:13 then we can just use the same energy and thinking,
00:13:18 apply on a medium and platform,
00:13:20 we both are not most familiar with,
00:13:23 which somehow is more experimental.
00:13:27 And that sense of doing an experiment together,
00:13:31 kind of I described it as an "exercise" we did together.
00:13:35 So, we managed to try out something
00:13:39 we don't know from the beginning.
00:13:41 And I think there was a time
00:13:44 we met (on zoom）every two or four week.
00:13:47 And then we were trying to talk to the other
00:13:50 to discuss to see what is nature,
00:13:53
00:13:55 So that really helped us to, kind of
00:13:58 make it more solid and understand better,
00:14:03 what is the creative process?
00:14:05 And how can you transform,
00:14:06 translate it into a different format?
00:14:09 So, this is something
00:14:10 we don't get to do it very often,
00:14:13 like, still keeping that experimental aspect
00:14:17 and not need to worry about audience or
00:14:20 how many people come into at all.
00:14:24 You know,
00:14:24 hearing you say that you make me think also
00:14:27 of I know your role at Tai Kwun in Hong Kong,
00:14:33 which, from what you described to me
00:14:36 is very much looking at Digital interfaces
00:14:40 and how that can aid or shape interpretation,
00:14:43 you know, of an exhibition.
00:14:45 So, to describe this project as a kind of liberation from
00:14:49 having to think about those things
00:14:51 in strict terms,
00:14:52 and actually really tests the potential
00:14:55 and almost what I would describe as the malleability.
00:14:59 like it really feels like
00:15:02 you're taking it like material and, and twisting it
00:15:05 and turning it. But equally,
00:15:09 I find it interesting what you highlighted
00:15:14 in terms of the Instagram interface,
00:15:16 which we know is one manifestation of Say to Day
00:15:20 and the website
00:15:22 as two structurally, you know, very different things
00:15:25 and with very different potentials.
00:15:27 and to break that down,
00:15:30 perhaps we could talk about the website first.
00:15:34 And I just did a question for people who have navigated that website,
00:15:39 I'm sure they'll be interested to know,
00:15:41 is how you worked with
00:15:44 the web designer
00:15:45 To what extent did you have
00:15:50 a kind of artistic freedom
00:15:52 with the structures the website, you know, building.
00:15:56
00:15:57 Also, limitations I'm sure there that you face
00:16:01 Do you know, it's kind of...
00:16:02 I think for those of us, again,
00:16:04 who aren't particularly tech savvy,
00:16:06 or we don't have our own experience of building websites,
00:16:09 it can be very difficult to understand
00:16:11 where the web developer is coming in.
00:16:15 And in your case,
00:16:16 your artists and curators.
00:16:18 so, could you describe that, that process?
00:16:20 and and who you worked with.
00:16:23 Okay. So, the basically,
00:16:28 I had this idea of
00:16:31 using a template
00:16:34 of the website building, like a company,
00:16:39 I think, website builder,
00:16:42 which is a New York based Website Builder
00:16:45 called squarespace.
00:16:47 So, there are lots of beautiful templates,
00:16:49 and people can easily make,
00:16:51 like...commercial website (by) using the template.
00:16:58 then this is my kind of idea, you know, like using the template,
00:17:04 then do some kind of like a custom-coding thing
00:17:09 and try to twist some of the elements
00:17:13 within the template.
00:17:16 Because for me,
00:17:16 this is quite important, you know,
00:17:20 I did some research, when we started this project,
00:17:23 I did a research on many different types of websites,
00:17:28 some of them are not commercial,
00:17:30 then some of them are quite experimental, in terms of the
00:17:33 technical, you know,
00:17:35 like, things they applied for the structure.
00:17:41 then for me.
00:17:44 I find it quite difficult to you know, locate those things
00:17:55 within my understanding, you know, like
00:17:58 it's kind of like..is it like.. somehow
00:18:02 the website is like, interactive.
00:18:04 And they, you know, it's very...some website is really tricky,
00:18:10 I don't know (how to put it)...
00:18:15 I felt quite lost,
00:18:18 you know,
00:18:18 like,I didn't get a sense of that...
00:18:21 it was kind of fun, but that was not what I wanted to do.
00:18:28 So, for me, you know,
00:18:33 it's really interesting,
00:18:34 the online is some kind of like, space
00:18:38 within our mind,
00:18:41 but we are projecting our physical reality,
00:18:44 to understand the online space.
00:18:48 So, in that case, like, Instagram is
00:18:54 is also a template, a kind of template, right?
00:18:57 so people can, you know, like, insert their,
00:18:59 like images and using the structures
00:19:03 and stuffand stuff like this.
00:19:04 so for me.
00:19:06 this is a quite interesting springboard
00:19:10 to start the..., you know, questioning about
00:19:13 what is the online space,
00:19:15 what is the online architecture can be,
00:19:18 you know, if we..., Yeah, something like this.
00:19:23 So then I did some research
00:19:26 and then London based design company
00:19:29 called the Visuable, they
00:19:32 did very nice custom coding type of things
00:19:36 using the Squarespace website (template).
00:19:38 So, I asked them, you know, if they are interested in helping us
00:19:43 I think, Yutaka, you might want to say a little bit more about kind of,
00:19:50 how do we call it, title?（*navigation menu of the website）
00:19:53 Yeah, they were random in a way
00:19:57 that is not completely random.
00:19:59 Even, the title of our project Say to Day,
00:20:04 I think the way how you decided that
00:20:06 you also give people a hint
00:20:08 How the logic, your logic work.
00:20:11 Okay. So, should I screen share the website?
00:20:20 That might be easier
00:20:21 You know, I can explain a little bit about the structure
00:20:26 and how I try to construct the idea.
00:20:32 Yeah, just… Can you see, can you see the...
00:20:49 So, this is the landing page.
00:20:53 Then, basically,
00:20:56 for the online architecture,
00:20:59 I created in total 15 rooms
00:21:05 within architecture.
00:21:07 So, I think one of the rooms is an Instagram,
00:21:10 then, the landing page is one of them.
00:21:15 So, this is the pop-up window for the curatorial statement
00:21:26 done by Ying, and, also, our biography.
00:21:31 So, this is the pop-up page.
00:21:34 So, the rest of the twelve rooms,
00:21:50 you know,
00:21:51 I used them for creating two lines.
00:21:55 One is the upper line, in here,
00:21:58 it consists of six navigation titles,
00:22:02 then, the bottom line also
00:22:05 consists of six navigation titles,
00:22:08 then, this is the kind of like…
00:22:15 it reflects my concern about the territorial and the framing issues.
00:22:20
00:22:21 So, it's a lot of, kind of zoning and grouping attempt
00:22:30 is applied in a various like, methodology, various ways.
00:22:35
00:22:36 So, it's kind of like, basically,
00:22:39 you know, the [Place like this] is paired with the [We like that].
00:22:46 So, you can see the (paired) title and (theri) name,
00:22:50 somehow share some similarity.
00:22:55 The [nocturnal] is a paired with [afterlife],
00:22:59 and the [face] paired with [Griff], and then so on and so on.
00:23:02 yeah,
00:23:04 so, the pairing sometime is related to the literature meaning,
00:23:10 but sometimes is basically it's not really to do with the meaning,
00:23:14 to do with English, the structure of English,
00:23:18 which is how the alphabet come together to create a work.
00:23:23
00:23:24
00:23:26 I think, you know, how I come up with certain ideas, titles, etc.,
00:23:34 it's just, it's quite nonlinear,
00:23:37 I need to go through the nonlinear development.
00:23:41 So, it's, it's kind of like, you know...
00:23:47 I took lots of notes. And, you know...
00:23:49 I wrote some kind of rubbish, lots of rubbish in my PC.
00:23:55 So, it's all my mistyping and stuff like this are within a word format.
00:24:03
00:24:08 when I wanted to decide the title for the project,
00:24:11 I looked into all my curatorial notebook and memos
00:24:15 and stuff like this, then
00:24:18 somehow, you know,
00:24:23 this random encounter with my previous writing,
00:24:28 fragmented writing, you know, drew my attention.
00:24:32 So, that was the [say to day] ( I found in the memo),
00:24:34 so it was supposed to be [day to day]
00:24:37 So, I mistyped it,
00:24:38 then, like, the word [say to day] was in my writing.
00:24:43 Then, I revisited the file,
00:24:47 you know, then I found it quite fascinating,
00:24:50 you know
00:24:51 the sound of it and also the, how the sound illogical,
00:24:55 doesn't make any sense and you know,
00:24:59 but somehow, you know,
00:25:00 the Say to Day
00:25:01 and all the process of, you know,
00:25:03 like, generating this phrase
00:25:05 was kind of like related to the project, concept in a way Yeah.
00:25:12 I think from the way how Yutaka
00:25:16 trying to open it up
00:25:19 or drift away from the most familiar medium, or skills
00:25:24 or whatever, that how we call it,
00:25:27 an artist on the skill, the signature everything,
00:25:30 he is trying to, kind of, can I say, "throw it away?"
00:25:37 so that he is free to explore the endless possibility,
00:25:41 particularly with this project,
00:25:43 we are trying to apply in the digital world.
00:25:47 Because we think in the digital world,
00:25:49 there is so many different ways of narrative and
00:25:55 linear, nonlinear and it can cross path,
00:25:59 that will make ways for the illogical approach.
00:26:05 Somehow the limit in digital world is
00:26:09 really our pre-existing knowledge and our habit,
00:26:13 the way how we navigate, how we understand.
00:26:18 For example, in my statement,
00:26:20 I used one of the examples is that,
00:26:22 why would we all understand like the color text with underline
00:26:27 when we click on it, it will take us somewhere else.
00:26:29 So, this is not natural,
00:26:32 that was taught, that was a behavior
00:26:35 has been trained or build up.
00:26:38 So, this website, or these pieces of work,
00:26:42 that's trying to propose something else, apart from this logic.
00:26:49 That's why it is not linear,
00:26:51 that experience, you go into this,
00:26:53 you browse vertically, and then the next page,
00:26:56 it might be horizontally,
00:26:58 they were sort of good together for a reason.
00:27:03 But it also doesn't matter how they group together.
00:27:06 They were individual work images,
00:27:09 but also together, they might have something overlap or
00:27:15 share in common,
00:27:15 that everyone will read a different story.
00:27:18 It's also challenging for audience
00:27:22 because, especially for someone
00:27:25 that they really try to understand the logic,
00:27:27 or what's the message, if there is an overall even atmosphere
00:27:32 or emotion that they can take away, something to take away?
00:27:37 That is trying to... actually, absolutely trying to say that
00:27:42 what if there is no one particular thing to take away?
00:27:47 Or the visiting experience?
00:27:50 We don't have an absolute answer yet.
00:27:53 I don't think we have spoken to enough people
00:27:56 to find out how about it?
00:27:59 Definitely some frustration.
00:28:03 I think, Yeah, this is somehow,
00:28:10 Yeah,
00:28:12 I kinda like the idea of using the bipolar, like a division,
00:28:20 bipolar setting.
00:28:22 It's kind of like you have poles in both ends,
00:28:27 then this is a kind of like a...
00:28:29 a very much like a binary, like ideas.
00:28:33 But we can use it as a springboard
00:28:36 to see how things are more complicated
00:28:40 and you know, like, nonbinary entity is interconnected each other.
00:28:46 So, this is my idea. So that's why I created the two parallel lines.
00:28:50 So, this is obviously showing
00:28:52 "this side" and "the other side",
00:28:54 so "our side" and you know, like... "someone else's the side",
00:28:58 this "our side" and "offshore".
00:29:00 I don't know, it's kind of...
00:29:04 for example, like a digital and physical.
00:29:07 So, this is... my idea is...
00:29:14 nothing is, you know, like isolated,
00:29:17 everything needs to have a kind of like, correspondence,
00:29:29 It's not, it's not like...
00:29:31 like a one-to-one relationship.
00:29:33 It's kind of like, one-to-many,
00:29:36 a so it's kind of like a...
00:29:38 I wanted to create a multi-centric structures,
00:29:42 so many centers, and so many peripheral areas.
00:29:46 So, it’s a kind of like overlapping each other,
00:29:48 but, by... in order to approach the structure,
00:29:52 so I need to start with, that you know, like bipolar ideas,
00:29:57 bipolar setting.
00:30:01
00:30:02 You know, it's interesting, I think two things I'm picking up here.
00:30:09 One is the reference to a template of some kind.
00:30:14 And as we can see already,
00:30:17 you know, with the website,
00:30:19 despite it being based on a template,
00:30:22 the way that you work with the web developer,
00:30:24 the way that you applied
00:30:27 your very rhizomatic approach
00:30:31 to arranging and linking really comes through.
00:30:36 And to me,
00:30:37 it feels like a bit of a statement as well
00:30:39 about how... I think, we find ourselves
00:30:44 in a moment with the Internet, and digital media
00:30:47 where there's this kind of tension between,
00:30:50 particularly if we think, from a commercial agenda.
00:30:54
00:30:56 That there, there are certain platforms
00:31:00 and ways of selling, you know, online users’ certain things,
00:31:06 Through templates, they know that
00:31:08 respond to some of these learned behaviors as Ying described.
00:31:14 And so, we're starting to feel
00:31:15 that sense of almost like passive participants
00:31:22 in this digital mechanisms.
00:31:25
00:31:25 Whereas I think it's so important now,
00:31:28 especially to remind ourselves that
00:31:32 for one,
00:31:33 even these original templates are based on feedback from users,
00:31:38 which restores some of the agency back to us.
00:31:43 And in so doing can also make us think about
00:31:46 how we can manipulate and stretch,
00:31:49 you know, these templates that we think,
00:31:51 Oh, you know, have limitations,
00:31:54 or are actually only designed for one purpose,
00:31:57 or to make us behave in a certain way.
00:31:59 You know, there's this sense of a loss of control,
00:32:03 and an expression that we have as users of the internet,
00:32:07 which, if we think about its utopian beginnings,
00:32:10 you know, we're probably very different to
00:32:13 what even the people who've constructed the internet
00:32:16 and digital platforms, you know
00:32:17 what we're really hoping for it,
00:32:19 You know.
00:32:21 And I sense this very playful and satirical, you know,
00:32:26 of playing with these constraints and structures,
00:32:30 but also doing so in a way that is optimistic
00:32:35 and actually, like, assigned to us
00:32:38 or a call to action to say,
00:32:40 "Look, you know what, you can do the same!"
00:32:42 And I find this very, very appealing in this project,
00:32:47 you know, it doesn't,
00:32:48 it doesn't have that closed-off sense of coherency about it.
00:32:54 And you can sense,
00:32:56 or you feel, almost as you're navigating the website, like,
00:33:00 as if Yutaka was thinking out loud,
00:33:03 think through these processes, you know, you feel part of that.
00:33:06 Rather than kind of witnessing it at a distance.
00:33:14 If that makes sense.
00:33:17 Yes, it's very interesting.
00:33:22 This is a question for both of you.
00:33:25 Because perhaps if we flip over to the Instagram tab,
00:33:29 yeah. One of the things I also found so impressive about
00:33:33 this project was
00:33:34 the sheer amount of visual material.
00:33:37
00:33:40 Seriously, it's encyclopedic! And I'm just...
00:33:44 what a basic question in a way,
00:33:46 but you know, where does all this material come from?
00:33:48 There's a lot of videos, photographs, designed graphics,
00:33:53 and ones, as you can see here
00:33:54 that use the Instagram form,
00:33:58 actually could create, you know, composite larger entities.
00:34:02 I mean, there's so much, I mean, as much as
00:34:06 Yutaka, you talk about
00:34:07 almost quite haphazard sort of approach.
00:34:11 This takes a lot of planning.
00:34:14 I mean , really, It has to have the bird's eye view. So,
00:34:17 So, wondering,
00:34:18 if it is the role that Ying also helped with a bit here,
00:34:21 you know, to provide that bird's eye view.
00:34:24 Yeah, yeah.
00:34:25
00:34:27 Yeah, I think I was really interested in the Instagram architecture
00:34:31 from the very beginning,
00:34:33 that they have a...
00:34:35 how do we call it? It’s not landing page...
00:34:38 but anyway,
00:34:39 if you really go into someone's account,
00:34:43 And when they were put together,
00:34:46 there was like, very specific and formal glid
00:34:51 like three by whatever line you can have.
00:34:55 And I think from the very beginning,
00:34:56 we want to address that
00:34:58 we want to give the acknowledgement to the architecture
00:35:03 created on this social media.
00:35:06 But also, what it allowed us is, like,
00:35:09 when you go deep into each single post,
00:35:13 then you can discover more,
00:35:15 see more video or still images.
00:35:18 It is also a little bit of reflection,
00:35:21 Actually, when we do every single project or create something,
00:35:25 There is always,
00:35:27 once we put it out, we take it out of our studio,
00:35:30 we get it out of our way,
00:35:32 you are facing people with different interests, different demand,
00:35:36 and different tolerance with time.
00:35:39 And I think that is
00:35:41 also kind of adjusting the various audience interests and behaviors
00:35:48 as well.
00:35:50 And with that really rich contents,
00:35:53 I think that Yutaka can talk more about it,
00:35:57 I was very impressed when we started the project,
00:36:03 I think it is Yutaka, really opened up his personal archive
00:36:08 before we decided what to do.
00:36:10
00:36:11 So that is a kind of really interesting, impressive openness,
00:36:17 and also
00:36:18 I'm particularly interested is
00:36:20 like, for an artist, whatever established or young artists,
00:36:26 they will always filter, screen something
00:36:30 before you go out or share with someone els
00:36:32 apart from themselves.
00:36:34 And that kind of openness is kind of really no limit, no bottom line.
00:36:41 So that is a really interesting thing.
00:36:43 And obviously, I find it quite..., at some point,
00:36:46 I was like, "oh my god, I will never finish it."
00:36:48
00:36:54 And also, along the line, is not just what
00:36:57 in Yutaka’s personal archive.
00:37:00 We also...
00:37:01 kind of inspire me, and also,
00:37:03 we suggest different kinds of collaboration,
00:37:06 interaction that we can do.
00:37:09 For example, Yutaka asked me,
00:37:11 “Can I see some of your personal curatorial notes?"
00:37:16 “The note when you discuss with other artists or
00:37:19 any keyword or things that…, and WhatsApp messeges”
00:37:23 so, I see, let’s some...I chose some, but my selection...
00:37:27 because the way how he opened up,
00:37:29 so my selection wasn't really a selection
00:37:32 based on privacy,
00:37:35 it is like I open up but...
00:37:37 I try to screen through one week,
00:37:40 from the day he asked
00:37:42 and just share as much as possible.
00:37:46 And also with my curatorial notes,
00:37:48 my messy, fake notebook,
00:37:51 I really to try to stay true
00:37:53 and just look for something,
00:37:54 I think there was a mix of just pure texts and
00:37:57 something when I draw diagram or draw random images.
00:38:03 Yeah, yeah, that's right.
00:38:06 Yeah, so yeah, it was really interesting. For me...
00:38:12 you know
00:38:12 I asked Ying, also, you know, if she can provide me
00:38:16 some of the photograph, photography she took by her iPhone.
00:38:22 and
00:38:22
00:38:25 I used our, you know, like a thread, like WhatsApp chat thread.
00:38:33
00:38:34 There is a certain conversation in the textual, like a form,
00:38:39 then it's kind of like a creating the timeline,
00:38:42 you know, like, with a specific time attached (to)
00:38:46 each, each wording,
00:38:47 you know, with a specific time.
00:38:49 So, I quite like the idea of the timeline, you know,
00:38:52 so, because,
00:38:55 without the timeline, we cannot
00:39:02 perceive the notion of the time.
00:39:05
00:39:05 The timeline is the actually, you know, enable us to
00:39:12 have the idea with the time.
00:39:14 So, for example, that's why the Instagram has
00:39:18 all the..., you know...
00:39:21 I used the time, this is all different,
00:39:25 like, in one post I multipled (the time) three times,
00:39:29 like at the same time.
00:39:30 So, it's kind of like a "12:19" is
00:39:32 is, you know, is used three times.
00:39:35 They're combined with different wordings.
00:39:39 So, it's kind of like as if 3 different locations
00:39:44 at the same time,
00:39:45 something different things happening,
00:39:46 you know, like a simultaneous events or something.
00:39:49
00:39:51 So, it can create a sense of like a parallel universe
00:39:54 in a way.
00:39:55
00:39:57 But you know, like, each of us have a timeline.
00:40:00 But it's really difficult to make it like a parallel
00:40:05 because you know,
00:40:06 like, we pin down different point with the different events,
00:40:11 then it cannot be, like a visible.
00:40:16 It's all hidden in our "something",
00:40:18 in our mobile phone,
00:40:21 like a bit by bit, like a fragmented timeline.
00:40:24
00:40:25 yeah
00:40:27 Because, um, you know, Ying’s photographic archive,
00:40:33 and, also, the curatorial note also showing certain like her timeline,
00:40:37
00:40:37 then it's kind of like, you know, using my timeline and her timeline,
00:40:42 kind of like a criss-cross.
00:40:45
00:40:49 basically, all the materials are from my (and Ying's) timeline,
00:40:53 like a physical timeline and digital timeline.
00:40:56 So, the photographic materials,
00:40:59 I go somewhere, then took photos
00:41:01 and videos, video snap, and, you know,
00:41:04
00:41:04 most of the things that are created by the iPhone.
00:41:07
00:41:09 So, it's really related to my timeline.
00:41:12 So, it's kind of like a mapping and re-mapping
00:41:14 my presence in digital in the physical world.
00:41:18 So, it's kind of like a playful, you know, like a mash up.
00:41:22
00:41:25 Am I right, Yutaka,
00:41:26 in that so, from what you've said,
00:41:29 a lot of the material that we see and caption
00:41:33 where it mentions a specific time
00:41:35 was actually captured at the time
00:41:38 that is mentioned?
00:41:40 No, this is, I think, all the time
00:41:43 I use it for the caption is
00:41:46 I took it from the WhatsApp conversation with Ying.
00:41:51
00:41:52 I see. Yeah,
00:41:53
00:41:54 But, not in order,
00:41:56 it's kind of like I randomly pick it up,
00:41:58 You know...
00:41:59 it's kind of like a shuffling that...
00:42:01 because of the physical and the digital timeline is different.
00:42:05 So, I need to twist it a little bit.
00:42:07
00:42:08
00:42:09 It's interesting, you pick it up,
00:42:11 because I think we...we decided,
00:42:16 we definitely go with no logic
00:42:19 or no boundary, but
00:42:20 every now and then we picked up certain way of thinking system.
00:42:26 And from our knowledge,
00:42:29 because from our knowledge,
00:42:30 that is also something easier to communicate with the audience.
00:42:33
00:42:33 So, people, sometimes
00:42:36 when it's completely abstract,
00:42:38 no hints, no boundary,
00:42:40 that is very difficult to understand.
00:42:42 And that might be annoying as well.
00:42:45 So, we did every now and then pick up,
00:42:49 have some discussion.
00:42:50 And then once we have the discussion,
00:42:53 it is also a process of going through it,
00:42:56 digest it,
00:42:58 and then always at the end
00:43:00 that a more open approach,
00:43:04 and just feel like
00:43:06 we can be just completely Wow, at once,
00:43:13
00:43:13 particularly on a digital platform.
00:43:16 Because digital platforms are where they insert certain kind of
00:43:19 basic constraints in some way.
00:43:22 And since we have to put it on this platform,
00:43:26 so we already have that constraint
00:43:29 or a common ground that we are dealing with.
00:43:33
00:43:33
00:43:36
00:43:37 Picking up on this point
00:43:39 about wanting to somehow express
00:43:43 parallel timelines?
00:43:45 I mean, really, it's a fact with so much of the, the digital media
00:43:54 we consume in online
00:43:56 that at any one time,
00:43:57 there could be thousands of people
00:44:00 actually looking at the same thing.
00:44:02
00:44:03 And yet, you know, we don't have that consciousness of that
00:44:07 because, fundamentally,
00:44:09 you know
00:44:09 the used relationship is actually very singular.
00:44:12 You know, me, my mobile phone, and my iPad,
00:44:19 and this has been,
00:44:21 it's interesting to reflect about this in a time of COVID,
00:44:25 as well.
00:44:26
00:44:27 But digital platforms have enabled us to keep connected
00:44:31 as we are now, through zoom.
00:44:33
00:44:34 I think many people acknowledge that
00:44:37 it's very difficult to have that sense of,
00:44:41
00:44:42 you know, a group of people in a room,
00:44:44 that it's not just me interacting with my screen.
00:44:47 Yeah, that's true.
00:44:50 A paradox or an irony
00:44:53 that, you know, all of these things,
00:44:56 Instagram, you know, designed... like social media,
00:44:59 you know, that’s designed to connect us with people,
00:45:03 when yet we, we often just feel so singular,
00:45:05 and so alone and in our own time.
00:45:07 That's true.
00:45:09
00:45:11 Yeah, so true.
00:45:12 I think I I need to focus on what's happening on screen,
00:45:17 during the having the zoom conversation,
00:45:20 I feel so I don't know, insane.
00:45:24 just, what I'm doing just sitting alone in a studio,
00:45:29 talking to the screen. So it's kind of like...yeah,
00:45:33 yeah, it's kind of
00:45:34 it's really interesting, you know...
00:45:36
00:45:37 I'm thinking to come back also to a couple of points
00:45:42 that we touched on earlier.
00:45:44 One of these is what you've described as this sort of
00:45:47 very physical relationship or
00:45:49 conception of the digital material and space.
00:45:53 And also, the second one, language,
00:45:56 but maybe I'll address that a little bit later.
00:45:59 But in terms of,
00:46:01 yeah, this kind of physical relationship,
00:46:04 I mean,
00:46:06 even you know that
00:46:08 how we talked about the title of the project, Say to Day
00:46:10 and how it was literally because
00:46:12 your fingers slipped on the keyboard,
00:46:14 anyone look at their keyboard right now.
00:46:18 on the instant English keyboard,
00:46:20 that the S is right next to the D.
00:46:22 Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
00:46:23
00:46:27
00:46:27 But yeah,
00:46:28 this is something. And I also wonder,
00:46:31 another thing we've talked about before,
00:46:33 is, for those of us who kind of grew up adapting,
00:46:39 let's say, to digital media,
00:46:42 as opposed to being born in it.
00:46:44 You know, in a way that nowadays,
00:46:47 it's so normal for a young baby,
00:46:50 as soon as they're born to be,
00:46:52 you know, playing games on an iPad,
00:46:54 you know,
00:46:57 I know this is the shared experience with us.
00:46:59 But it's like we,
00:47:01 we've had to adapt and get used to
00:47:04 constant upgrades of technology,
00:47:06
00:47:07 that haven't felt intuitive
00:47:09 at the moment that they're produced,
00:47:11 and we have to sort of relate to them.
00:47:13 and
00:47:14 there’s certainly I feel this sense very strongly
00:47:18 in both the website and the Instagram, again,
00:47:20 whilst it is very coherent, you know, the vision,
00:47:24 there's a certain clunkiness
00:47:25 to the, you know, you jump in and out and navigate.
00:47:29 And I'm just wondering,
00:47:32 maybe this is also a point of personal reflection
00:47:35 for both of you,
00:47:36 but this idea of trying to reflect that,
00:47:41 you know, that having grown up with digital media,
00:47:46 having to adapt to it,
00:47:47 how to make the point that it's not always intuitive,
00:47:50 at least at the point, it's introduced,
00:47:53 you know, these, we have to adapt physically,
00:47:57 you know,
00:47:58 even the notion of touch typing,
00:47:59 you know, really have to trained,
00:48:01 I mean, yeah,
00:48:03 I'm curious.
00:48:04 Yeah, for me, you know,
00:48:09 you know,
00:48:09 my primary medium was painting.
00:48:12 so it's kind of,
00:48:13 I often think the painting and
00:48:15 photograph, like a JPEG of the painting,
00:48:18 the relationship of those two are quite interesting.
00:48:21 Because
00:48:22 the JPEG of the photograph, no, no, "the painting"
00:48:27 is kind of like, function as a caption.
00:48:31 so it's
00:48:32 So, it's, it has a certain role, you know,
00:48:34 that the role is to convey the information of the painting
00:48:39 through the photographic images.
00:48:40
00:48:41 So, the actually
00:48:42 the JPEG of painting is the same as the other caption data,
00:48:47 it's kind of like dimensions and the year of productions
00:48:50 and stuff like this.
00:48:51 So, the people are...
00:48:53 when people are looking at a JPEG of the paintings,
00:48:56 they try to look at the painting,
00:49:01 not the photography itself.
00:49:03 But you know, in terms of the action,
00:49:06 you know, like I take into photography, digital photography,
00:49:09 It's,
00:49:10 it's absolutely the same action
00:49:12 if someone wants to make a photographic piece of artwork
00:49:18 using the iPhone,
00:49:20 then, just you know...like, to put the shutter, Yeah...
00:49:24 so it's kind of like exactly the same action,
00:49:27 but our idea attached to the, the JPEG, it's totally different.
00:49:33 But, you know, this is a quite an interesting idea,
00:49:35 you know,
00:49:36 if... you know, all the JPEG photography, like
00:49:42 digital photography need a correction,
00:49:45 it's kind of like a color correction or editing process needed.
00:49:50 Even though you don't use any... like
00:49:53 a specific application,
00:49:55 you know, like, the device itself, integrated a certain function
00:50:01 to make a color corrections in a certain way.
00:50:05 So, so the digital, the data need
00:50:09 that kind of like editing process.
00:50:11 So then, you know,
00:50:15 the JPEG of the paintings,
00:50:17
00:50:17
00:50:17 if we over-photoshopped,
00:50:20
00:50:21 then the color become funny,
00:50:23 and you know, like, as the images on the photography is totally
00:50:28 or slightly far from the actual painting,
00:50:31 then people started feel something wrong.
00:50:34 Because it should be the caption
00:50:38 of the painting, but
00:50:39 you know that photography has their own reality.
00:50:43 So, photography is photography,
00:50:45 one side, one aspect of the photography, right?
00:50:48 So then, I just, you know, often think,
00:50:52 what if, you know,
00:50:53 the artist found out
00:50:55 they do too much Photoshop,
00:51:00 then...
00:51:02 the image of the painting becomes something else,
00:51:05 then the artist found it more interesting somehow,
00:51:08 then, you know, I think it's kind of interesting,
00:51:11 if the artists started...
00:51:16 you know, they started to rethink about the framing
00:51:20 that they gave to the painting and the JPEG,
00:51:22
00:51:23 then, may be, the painting can be the one of the process,
00:51:26 you know,
00:51:28 in order to create the JPEG as a final outcome.
00:51:31
00:51:32 So, we can, you know, like...
00:51:34 shift the notion and you know, like a framing.
00:51:39 So, this is... then also we can both
00:51:42 think of the painting as a final product
00:51:45 and also the JPEG, like a
00:51:47 mutated JPEG, is also final outcome.
00:51:51 So, in that sense,
00:51:53 we can create a lot of... you know, different variations,
00:52:01 you know,
00:52:02 but the JPEG and painting,
00:52:06 one is on the physical side, the other one is like a digital side,
00:52:09 but both related to each other.
00:52:11 So, this relationship is very important, I think, for me,
00:52:15
00:52:16 So, that's why you know,
00:52:18 creating all the variations on Instagram materials and website,
00:52:23 I created the many, many materials and variations
00:52:26 and then
00:52:26 and then sometimes I reach the point I can make a leap,
00:52:31 I can make something like...
00:52:33 and somehow making fresh groupings and zoning
00:52:37 and stuff like this.
00:52:41
00:52:43 I think, with the Instagram and website,
00:52:46 which, where we created one of my questions,
00:52:51 which actually,
00:52:52 probably from the very beginning of this collaboration,
00:52:55 until the end,
00:52:56 I'm trying to ask, is like,
00:52:59 what is the offering from the digital architect,
00:53:02 and how we claim it,
00:53:04 how we make it our own
00:53:05 and how we treat it, with respect
00:53:09 as the way how we treat our materials
00:53:12 and the physical gallery spaces.
00:53:14 And this is some fundamental things we're trying to do.
00:53:18
00:53:21 And I always want to...,
00:53:24
00:53:24 I try to help myself
00:53:27 what virtual can offer us.
00:53:31 And keep reminding myself
00:53:32 something like, always with contemporary arts,
00:53:36 visual arts, a lot of time
00:53:37 the sense of scale, atmosphere,
00:53:40 being in the place is very important.
00:53:43 But also, there is some kind of touch-and-go-ing
00:53:49 and also the linear relationship,
00:53:53 which has actually been mentioned of your time,
00:53:56 and through this conversation with Yutaka,
00:53:59 what is time,
00:54:01 what is linear relationship,
00:54:03
00:54:03 digital relationship, digital time,
00:54:05 or the actual time?
00:54:07 Like you asked a very interesting question earlier on is,
00:54:11 is like, is that kind of echo,
00:54:14 like the (Instagram) post is echoing to our WhatsApp
00:54:17 in physically in physical time.
00:54:20 Not, but...
00:54:24 it is also the, the way how we understand time
00:54:31 in physical day is about what happened first
00:54:34 and what is next.
00:54:35 But actually, in digital world,
00:54:37 we can totally turn it around, mix it up.
00:54:42 And this is something that
00:54:45 I feel like we were trying to touch on this,
00:54:49 exploring this through making the work,
00:54:53 creating a sequence of viewing experience.
00:54:57 And that viewing experience, which doesn't demand
00:55:00 or ask people to say as much, or a certain time
00:55:05 you can join me on any page,
00:55:07 any session, leave with nothing,
00:55:10 which actually quite open
00:55:12 because it really has no navigation or logic at all.
00:55:16 But actually, it is really just about this.
00:55:20 It no need a logic
00:55:23 or a way to viewing sequences.
00:55:28
00:55:30 I mean, of course, this this point about time,
00:55:34 comes through in the title as well.
00:55:37 Whether you think of "today", you know,
00:55:40 as one word,
00:55:41
00:55:42 almost in breaking it down,
00:55:44 "say today",
00:55:47 it's that speaking to a particular point in time,
00:55:51 "say" as if it was "today".
00:55:53 I mean
00:55:53 I mean, that richness, you know, semantically
00:55:56 thinking that title too.
00:55:59 And, I mean, going to also
00:56:02 perhaps as a last point,
00:56:04 but I wanted to come back to because it feels important.
00:56:07 Is this thinking around language?
00:56:11 yeah, that's very important.
00:56:14
00:56:14 I do find it really interesting how, you know,
00:56:17 English is the language in which this has been thought out?
00:56:21 And yet,
00:56:25 of course,
00:56:26 you know, for both of you, that's a second language,
00:56:29 albeit one that you're very fluent in both of you.
00:56:32 But,
00:56:34 Yeah, I do
00:56:35 I often think that this is something that's missing
00:56:38 in a lot of artistic and cultural conversations.
00:56:42 Ironically, again, right?
00:56:44 conversation, role of language.
00:56:47 You know, as in how it structures our thinking,
00:56:49 and our habits.
00:56:52 You know, it's as if somehow English’s primacy
00:56:57 as a global language, you know, its currency
00:57:00 its widespread use,
00:57:02 makes us somehow invisible to its effect
00:57:06 on, on thinking.
00:57:08 And particularly, I'd say for,
00:57:11 you know
00:57:11 for people for whom it is a second or third language,
00:57:14 you know, where there's a level of translation
00:57:17 and sort of self-consciousness
00:57:19 that comes with speaking it.
00:57:21 If you're not, let's say,
00:57:22 completely fluent.
00:57:23
00:57:25 And, yeah, I'm just curious to know
00:57:28 how much, if at all,
00:57:30 you know, this, this thinking about English
00:57:32 as a language
00:57:33 and your own relationship to it,
00:57:36 and it being the language
00:57:38 that you communicated in through this project,
00:57:41 and its relationship to how something like a website
00:57:47 and Instagram functions,
00:57:48 you know, how does it influence that?
00:57:51 And you know,
00:57:52 myself, just as a note to this question,
00:57:56 but I'm just, I'm so curious.
00:57:58 I'm fascinated to even understand how,
00:58:01 for example,
00:58:03 that the Chinese language
00:58:04 might influence the structure and the way that We Chat,
00:58:09 you know, operates as a tool, you know, the template,
00:58:12 how it might have informed it.
00:58:13 So, yeah, any thoughts on that?
00:58:19
00:58:23 I just want to say language
00:58:25 is something we both are very aware of,
00:58:29 and aware of,
00:58:30 in a way that
00:58:31 how the inaccuracy and how wrong translatable
00:58:38 it is.
00:58:39 and then playing or taking advantage of the disadvantage,
00:58:46 is probably one of the core ideas
00:58:48 when we come to this.
00:58:50 At some point, we had an exercise,
00:58:53 and if you see some of the texts on Yutaka's website,
00:58:57 on Say to Day's website,
00:59:00 there were some texts which arrange very nicely in graphic
00:59:05 And, that is a mix of maybe certain parts in English
00:59:10 and certain parts in a different language.
00:59:12 Or I see something
00:59:14 he wrote in Japanese or something else.
00:59:16 And then, particularly those he wrote in Japanese,
00:59:20 I can't read.
00:59:21 And I put in Google Translate,
00:59:23 even though I know it's not accurate,
00:59:25 but I tried to respond to the Google Translate.
00:59:29 And when I continue the writing,
00:59:32 the creative writing of it,
00:59:34 I didn't put it in Chinese or an English,
00:59:37 the language I can handle.
00:59:39 But actually, I put it in Google translate
00:59:41 and it translated back into Japanese.
00:59:44
00:59:44 And so,
00:59:46 the interesting thing about that,
00:59:48 is like, the wrong transfer translatable, become something that
00:59:55 we trying to acknowledge,
00:59:56 instead of thinking it is a bug or something stop the communication.
01:00:05
01:00:05
01:00:07 Yeah, that's right.
01:00:10 So, but actually, (as) you can see,
01:00:15 so, this page, and this page
01:00:18 has a similar like, textual information,
01:00:22 but this is actually different.
01:00:24 It's slightly different.
01:00:25 Because of those textual information I put together,
01:00:29 like a hashtag and the caption wordings,
01:00:33 you know, by the different languages
01:00:38 so Chinese altogether, Japanese together, English together.
01:00:41 Then for this blog page,
01:00:45 an...
01:00:46 I used a translation website called Deep L.
01:00:54 Do you know, the site Deep L?
01:00:56 It is supposed to be better than Google translation, you know?
01:01:01 So yeah, in terms of the subtle nuance of the translation
01:01:06 it is much, much better.
01:01:09 So, the most of that (text I created),
01:01:12 I use a lot of Google translation,
01:01:15 in Google Translate.
01:01:17 So created (wrote) the English language at the beginning,
01:01:22 then also Japanese as well.
01:01:25 Then (for translating) the Japanese text into Chinese,
01:01:29 I used Google Translate.
01:01:32 So, the most of the Chinese text, I cannot read it,
01:01:37 doesn't make sense for me at all.
01:01:40 So, I just, you know, I cannot,
01:01:42 I cannot edit or adjust anything,
01:01:44 just Google Translate to created this Chinese text.
01:01:48 So, this is kind of like a third person,
01:01:50 you know, like me and Ying and Google Translate.
01:01:55 It's kind of like a writer, a new, another writer.
01:01:58 Yeah, then ...
01:02:00 I found that quite interesting, you know,
01:02:03 to use the Deep L website,
01:02:08 using the Deep L website,
01:02:10 then, all the textual information,
01:02:12 like I think, English to Chinese,
01:02:15 Japanese to English or something like this,
01:02:18 then created a different version of the same meanings.
01:02:24 But actually,
01:02:25 the structure and the length of the wordings slightly different.
01:02:29 So, I think it shares the same, like, semantics, But
01:02:35 it's a different structure,
01:02:37 different wordings.
01:02:38 So, it's kind of like a sense of, like a parallel universe.
01:02:45 So, for me, yeah, in terms of the language
01:02:48 You know
01:02:49 you know, like when I started learning English seriously,
01:02:52 that was like when I was 26.
01:02:54 When I decided to go to London,
01:02:57 so that was the point
01:02:59 I studied English seriously.
01:03:02 Until the point, my English was like,
01:03:04 I don't know
01:03:05 it was so awful,
01:03:06 you know, I didn't study properly.
01:03:09 Then
01:03:10 I started realizing
01:03:13 the language is not... only the tool
01:03:21 to communicate, to convey,
01:03:24 what I want to say or something.
01:03:26 it's more related to
01:03:28 the culture...cultural, you know, things.
01:03:33
01:03:35 So, it's, it's kind of like a daunting you know,
01:03:37 seeing one language and another language
01:03:40 and try to match each other (perfectly).
01:03:41 That's totally impossible.
01:03:43 Because it belong to the different cultures
01:03:45 and fit in like… a different….
01:03:48 Yeah, I think.
01:03:49 Then,
01:03:52 I started thinking that mistranslation is another reality.
01:03:57 yeah...
01:03:57 So, it doesn't have to be matched perfectly.
01:04:01 (if) We created a translation,
01:04:04 it can be mistranslated, but that's also another reality.
01:04:08 So, it's totally different like entities.
01:04:11 If we think this is the same things,
01:04:13 it has to be the same, it can be quite frustrating.
01:04:16
01:04:18 But somehow (if we can think), "okay, this is the translation"
01:04:21 "you know, it cannot be matched perfectly,"
01:04:23 then,
01:04:24 we can be more open to the new possibility,
01:04:28 you know
01:04:29 the mistranslated text can suggest
01:04:32 or open up something new or
01:04:34 I don't know, something better than orignal, may be...
01:04:36 I don't know. Yeah.
01:04:38
01:04:40 Well, I feel like
01:04:41 that's a good note to wrap up this conversation.
01:04:46 But I don't know if there's anything also
01:04:51 that anyone else would like to add?
01:04:54 Or even for you, Ying and Yutaka, just about the project.
01:04:59 I mean
01:04:59 of course
01:05:00 there is a thought about what this might bring to you
01:05:05 for you both in terms of future projects and practice.
01:05:10
01:05:15 I think that project has something
01:05:19 which is quite fundamental
01:05:21 that I don't think we touched on this today is, nature...
01:05:26 and nature that we were used to work
01:05:31 or when we work with something
01:05:33 and the role, something between Yutaka, me,
01:05:38 we both artists,
01:05:39 and also curate, and obviously the profession is different.
01:05:43 I'm more like a full-time curator,
01:05:45 and very, very part time weekend, artist,
01:05:49 occasional artist.
01:05:50 and Yutaka really trying to do both
01:05:53 more focusing on the art (artist).
01:05:55 So, the role,
01:05:56 and is there any transferable knowledge, experience,
01:06:01 or what transfer or exchange mean,
01:06:06 and when we are doing something together,
01:06:08 we have to stick to our own role.
01:06:11 And what the role means,
01:06:14 I think is
01:06:15 another quite fundamental kind of awareness
01:06:20 or understanding,
01:06:22 Why would you like...
01:06:23 There's something clicked between us.
01:06:26 That happening behind the back.
01:06:29 So, this is something I think,
01:06:31 and, quite interesting, and probably going forward,
01:06:35 that it will always be something we bear in mind.
01:06:40 Yeah, that's very interesting, yeah.
01:06:44 I think for the...
01:06:50 yeah, this is very interesting, because, you know,
01:06:52 like, what I'm interested in is like,
01:06:54
01:06:56 between, like two polls, right?
01:06:59 So, it's kind of like a digital -physical, curator and artist,
01:07:03 and in between area is very interesting to explore.
01:07:08 so
01:07:08 So I think, Ying, and me both had,
01:07:12 you know, this background
01:07:15 and you know, like, artistic education..., education as an artist,
01:07:20 and also, you know, curatorial experience.
01:07:23 So, it's kind of like,
01:07:24 it's very interesting to see from Ying and my point of view,
01:07:29 to see the in between area,
01:07:31 then (exploring) what can we do....
01:07:35
01:07:36 And also, for me, yeah, this is a...
01:07:44 you know, when I created this project with Ying,
01:07:48 when this wasn't yet finalized...,
01:07:56 (when we) just had an idea,
01:07:57 then, the idea itself was located on “the other side”,
01:08:02 you know, then once it was created,
01:08:05 and we gave it the title, frames and,
01:08:08 (when) I started talking about this,
01:08:10 then, this project started existing.
01:08:14 So, in that way, this project
01:08:16 comes to “our side”.
01:08:18 Then there is kind of like a playful, like...an exercise
01:08:23
01:08:25 to think about the future events as “the other side”.
01:08:29 So, once the online things,
01:08:31 like, “this project”, was” the other side”,
01:08:33 then it came to “our side”.
01:08:35 Then, the future project might be
01:08:39 the physical forms, like exhibition
01:08:42 and stuff like this.
01:08:44 Then, it is now just an idea, you know, unrealized idea.
01:08:48 So, this is still on “the other side”.
01:08:50 So, it's kind of like, you know
01:08:53 shifting the... you know, like a ground.
01:08:55
01:08:57 this is very interesting idea. So... yeah...
01:09:05 It's a, it's..., I hearing you say,
01:09:08 Oh, you know, perhaps it could be an exhibition of some kind,
01:09:13 makes me feel like we've come full circle
01:09:16 from at the beginning,
01:09:18 when you mentioned that
01:09:19 your collaboration was, at the outset,
01:09:23 supposed to be an exhibition.
01:09:25 So perhaps the reflection is,
01:09:29 having gone through this process,
01:09:31 how this,
01:09:32 an exhibition outcome might be totally, differently structured?
01:09:37 Yeah, definitely,
01:09:39 So, we had a rough exhibition proposal
01:09:43 when we decided we work together,
01:09:46 and then you quickly transformed into a digital work
01:09:52
01:09:54 when the pandemic hit.
01:09:55 Now, I don't think we will do the same physical exhibition.
01:10:01 Definitely after this exercise.
01:10:03 Yeah, definitely, definitely.
01:10:05 Gonna to be something very different, and
01:10:09 I don't know,
01:10:10 I don't have an answer yet.
01:10:12 And I think once we...
01:10:15 It was great to have you to talk through it with us.
01:10:19 Last time asking the questions,
01:10:21 and today as well.
01:10:23 You... the key points or things that you pick up,
01:10:27 actually is, it really worth us to think it again.
01:10:32
01:10:34
01:10:36 Thank you, that was amazing. Thank you.
01:10:38 Thank you, for both of you. That's that's really...
01:10:41 I don't know, I talk too much.
01:10:42
01:10:44 No, We want to hear
01:10:48 Thank you, thank you for your patience,
01:10:50 and (your) understanding (for) my messy personality.
01:10:54 No,
01:10:57
01:10:57 Thank you for being a friend. Basically, yeah.
01:11:01 Likewise,
01:11:02 It's been so great to kind of get deep into this project.
01:11:08 You know, it's the, it's so rich.
01:11:10 And it's also clearly so personal to you both.
01:11:14 Actually, I think you've really risked
01:11:17 a lot of yourselves in it,
01:11:18 which I find as a.., whether an artistic or curatorial practice
01:11:23 something that we should all strive for really.
01:11:27 You know, it's an...
01:11:28 why are we doing this?
01:11:30 And what are we risking of ourselves?
01:11:32 And what we know or what we think we know?
01:11:36 Because it makes it worth doing.
01:11:37 Definitely! Ah, thank you. That's beautiful.
01:11:44 Thank you so much, Melanie. That is a really good,
01:11:48 really nice way to wrap it up this conversation.
01:11:52 Yeah.. perfect!
01:11:53 And again, this conversation is also,
01:11:56 we kind of structured
01:11:57 a little bit,
01:11:58 also with the structure, in the flow,
01:12:01 how we discuss about it,
01:12:03 And one of the things we also talked about a little bit,
01:12:09 is it, how can we extend the invitation
01:12:12 to other people, and
01:12:14 we still don't have a plan yet, but
01:12:16 definitely today,
01:12:18 I think the conversation, the flow of it,
01:12:20 it has already demonstrated
01:12:21 one of the possibilities.
01:12:24 So, thank you so much.
01:12:26 Thank you. Thank you for both of you.
01:12:28 It's been amazing.
01:12:32 Well, I suppose that I better I better go.
01:12:35 Time does not stand still.
01:12:39 The day rolls on!
01:12:44 Speak soon.
01:12:46 Have a lovely day!
01:12:4 7 Speak soon! Bye!
01:12:50 Bye!